Posts by Cold Steel

6

If There is no God is Murder Wrong? - Michael Shermer

by cofty in

a very useful 8 minute talk on a topic that is raised frequently by believers in this forum.. ....

Cold Steel

Plato refuted nothing. If there is no God, murder is not wrong, cannot be wrong nor can it ever be wrong. Why? Because there are no eternal consequences. Man can codify murder, establish penalties, but he cannot establish the morality of murder. Only God can be the arbiter of murder because He knows all things; He knows what is in our hearts and minds, and He has established the laws and penalties of iniquity.

The Divine Command Theory is only a small part of the picture. Man can dictate law, but not morality. Fifty years ago, homosexuality was considered immoral. A hundred years ago, adultery was immoral. And twenty years from now pedophilia may be considered morally acceptable. And the scriptures tell us that when Jesus returns, the earth will be as it was in the days of Noah -- that is, it will be wicked beyond redemption.

Smiddy » If God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son John 3:16 , I presume he meant the whole world so why did he for at least four centuries favour the Israelites over all other nations that then existed?

Because the Israelites were receptive to God, and they were chosen before the world was. Jeremiah was told, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24), yet after his resurrection, the gospel was taken from the Jews and sent to the gentiles. And when the gentiles reject the gospel, it will go back to the Jews, and the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

And himself being responsible for the death of millions of people who were not his chosen people ?

The God of Israel disciplined many people by removing them from mortality, even among his people. The term "murder" applies to shedding innocent blood. If a people were to kill their own offspring by sacrificing them in the fires of Molech or through abortions, they would be ripe for destruction and it would be a judgment, not murder.

According to the bible he he was responsible for creating seperate nations when he confused the languages at Babel

That's because He wanted them to spread out and to fill the earth, not congregate in one place. The people were rebellious and angry over God's decision to flood the earth. The confusion of the languages did what it was supposed to do and caused the people to dissipate.

Jehovah God murdered millions of people before the birth of Jesus Christ.

Uh-huh. Name one.

27

Jehovah's Witnesses and Love

by Cold Steel in

comments?

stories?

reminiscences?.

Cold Steel

I've never heard of vampirism being one of the targets of the JWs. They wouldn't use crosses, though but torture stakes.

"Die, vampire, die!"

"Noooooooo...wait...what's that?

"It's a torture stake.

"What do you mean...torture stake, Helsing? What's that supposed to do?"

"It's supposed to stop you in your tracks, monster! I used to use crosses, but ve converted to Jehovah's Witnesses. Now ve use torture stakes. See...take that, and that!"

"Ouch...stop it, Helsing. Stop it!"

"Ja...dees torture stakes pack holy power!"

"No...they're sharp, Helsing. Did Helga join too?"

"Oh...ja, ja! Ve took ze Bible lessons together."

"Bible lessons?"

"Ja...see, I've got some literature right here? Vould you be interested in ze Bible lessons?"

"I don't know...."

"Ze are free! No cost to to you. Vat do you'n say, eh...eh?"

"Ouch...stop it with ze...I mean the torture stakes! FREE, eh?"

"Ja! FREE! It is ze truth, Count! And ze truth vill make you...."

"FREE! Well, perhaps you're on to something herr Helsing! I can always live by blood transfusions, right?"

"Ummm...ve can talk about it, Count. We can talk about it. And please...call me 'brother Helsing.'"

27

Jehovah's Witnesses and Love

by Cold Steel in

comments?

stories?

reminiscences?.

Cold Steel

Love manifests itself by service to others. If someone is hurt and they need their driveways shoveled, someone shovels it. Or they mow their lawns, get them groceries. One person said he, his wife and kids keep jars in which they put their spare change over the year. Then during the holidays they leave the jars on the doorsteps of those in need. Do Jehovah's Witnesses do things like that? And this isn't a rhetorical question -- I really don't know. If so, does it extend to non-JWs?

That's what I mean by love.

33

Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?

by Cold Steel in

it has to have happened.

people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?

or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.

Cold Steel

Blondie, I believe you've misinterpreted me somehow. I was all for what you did. If anything, you should have broken his other finger, too! The guy had it coming.

You embarrassed him, which is commendable, so please don't take me wrong. Everything you did was right. They gave him power and he abused it.

33

Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?

by Cold Steel in

it has to have happened.

people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?

or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.

Cold Steel

Yes, you do. But if the elder lied and it came down your word against his, it sounds like many people would go with the elder. That is, of course, until they began trying to figure out why you would break the guys finger.

58

Just a quick Poll...Do you think the GB is sincere?

by NikL in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about this the past few days and curious what the honest consensus is here just for fun.. show of hands,.

is the governing body.... a: completely sincere.

they really do believe what they teach.. b: somewhat sincere.

Cold Steel

Does it matter whether they're sincere or not? In the passage below, taken from Matthew 7, sincerity isn't mentioned once. If someone's marriage is ruined, their children driven away, I may have have great motives, but if the results are evil, how can I be good? And if I prophesy incorrect dates that cause others to ruin their lives, plan poorly, make poor investments and not educating themselves...

Aren't these evil fruits?

OR...if I, without any authority, cause someone to die because I guess concerning a doctrine that causes someone to refrain from lifegiving blood...

Isn't that evil fruit?

Where does the Lord mention sincerity?

15 Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. ...
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name [and]...done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

33

Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?

by Cold Steel in

it has to have happened.

people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?

or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.

Cold Steel

Dubstepped » You are also taught that they're appointed by God himself, so if you go against them, you're really going against God, and then you'll lose your hope of everlasting life.

Yeah, but the GB has said categorically that they (and this would extend to those under them) do not receive revelation or even inspiration from God. I'm LDS (Mormon) and my church is based on apostles, prophets, revelation and inspiration. If the LDS church announced that it did not receive revelation as the ancient church did, we would have millions of Mormons leaving the church overnight. The WTBTS says it doesn't receive revelation or inspiration, then what does it provide when it chooses elders and other officers? It becomes like the parable of the blind leading the blind.

The GB is supposed to be the faithful and wise servant who feeds the household of God and is responsible to God for managing His Household. But if God hired them and gave them the keys to the house and front gate, plus the right to distribute the chow, wouldn't the servant know about it (as it's a binding agreement between them and God)? Yet none of the GB members has seen an angel, none has spoken to God and none has received the keys of the kingdom that were given to Peter. Jesus said to the ancient Twelve, "For you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you." So when these apostles chose elders, I concede that if they were called and chosen of God, then those elders at least could make a claim to back up their flashlights, guns, uniforms and badges that go with the job.

So why do the JWs believe the elders are appointed by God? It's a fundamental question for someone who can take away your wife [SNAP!], other family members [SNAP!], friends [SNAP!] and fellow worshippers like that [SNAP!] If GB members really were God's chosen and appointed servants, I could at least understand why they might revere them and their apointees, but the GB has been denying inspiration and revelation for years, right?

So where does the idea come from that elder selections are of God when they can do so much damage? (Including causing suicides, which I also should have asked about.) Surely people with that kind of power could conceivably drive people to do that if the power is abused.

11

What criteria does Russia use to label a religion as extremist?

by sparky1 in

check this out on the russian ministry of justice webpage.

the governing body is going to have to do some fancy footwork to get around this criteria:.

http://minjust.ru/deyatelnost-v-sfere-nekommercheskih-organizaci/missionerskaya-.

Cold Steel

Continued

33

Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?

by Cold Steel in

it has to have happened.

people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?

or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.

Cold Steel

Blondie > There was a touchy, feely elder in my congregation and he had assaulted 4 sisters, one married, but her husband was afraid to do anything.
That elder came up to me in a swimming pool at a jw party and tried to grab me, I broke his finger. He told others he had broken on the bottom of the pool when he jumped in. The homeowners were afraid he would sue them, but he didn't. He showed up at work where my family member worked, and they knew I had broken his finger and why. The touching stopped......fortunately he died not long after that....

What is it that instills this fear of elders? Can anyone explain?? They're appointed positions, so the leadership should expect that abuses would pop up from time to time. Or do they just automatically support the elders? What would have happened had you and your friends just pulled the shunning routine on the elder?

Blondie > ...he died due to a genetic defect....

Complications having to do with an infection of the right index finger. Seriously, if it came down to your word against his, what do you think would have happened?

Sparky1 > When I was at Watchtower Farms, a young fellow got drunk and punched Frank Lewis (the Home Overseer) in the face! He was sent home immediately.

Geesh, I can barely wait to read your book! How long did you spend there? This guy who writes under the name Brock Talon said the authorities were really tough on smoking, but that lots of people had problems with alcohol because the folks at Bethel permitted it.

I was having issues with my closeted gay Elder roommate. He kept making passes at me and I had enough of that and went to Frank Lewis about it to get a room reassignment. Frank got furious with me for 'making accusations against an Elder' and threatened to physically 'throw me out of Bethel'. I told Frank that if he laid a hand on me that I would lay him out then and there. Later, I confronted my roommate about the whole issue and got into a big argument with him at the 'tool crib' in the factory. I grabbed him and was going to beat the shit out of him and he started to scream like an old woman.

When you had your problem with Lewis, how long did it take for the conversation to go South?

Any chance that Lewis rolled that way, too? Generally, when a guy makes a pass at another guy, there's no room for taking it the wrong way. He was either accusing you of misreading the guy or of lying. The latter is enough to get your jaw bent in most places my way. Can't imagine how the leadership would react to having two people hitting the same guy.

33

Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?

by Cold Steel in

it has to have happened.

people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?

or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.

Cold Steel

It has to have happened. People get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.

Does that ever happen? Or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old Kingdom Hall?

We're all people and are sometimes given to reacting in anger. What would be the disciplinary action for such a thing?